Love Should Find a Way
Saints, lovers and heretics,
This is a real tough issue. We are to identify division, discuss in the
spirit of love and try to come to some kind of agreement so
that we can as a group come to one accord. Identifying division is one
thing, healing division in the spirit of love is another. Now we all
know that bringing up an issue as controversial and divisive as speaking
in tongues is going to cause friction, at least it always has. There are
extremes at both ends and we cannot agree to disagree just for the sake
of love. There must be a way to love and still find the truth. We should
have all the answers needed to agree but there will always be those that
will not give up the pride necessary to be led of God to admit to error.
We do not have a long way to go on this issue if we are to come to a
consensus but that is not true for some. It would be easy to just have
those on this list that agree and cut off the rest but that would be too
easy and does nothing in the way of healing. Love must find a way but
love seems to be in short supply.
Truth must be valued above victory but if we are to have victory, truth
must be agreed upon before the healing takes place. Let
us take some time on this issue and pray that the Lord will reveal to
those of us that are misunderstood or just downright
wrong, the truth of the matter.
A heretic would be one that disagreed with the orthodox opinion,
orthodoxy being truth. I was very careful in bringing up this
issue to call the division error and not heresy. I made the mistake once
in identifying the error of the "perfect" being the completion of the
New Testament as explaining away spiritual gifts as heresy. I was wrong.
It may have been heresy, certainly a schismatic lie of satan, but it was
not in the spirit of love to put someone there as a heretic. These
issues are in error but we are not talking about the nature of Christ or
blasphemy or condemning saints to hell but just error.
On my page on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, I bring up the issue of
tongues, including my testimony, also my page on the Azusa Street
Mission and the glossolalia page. I have put them on the bottom so I may
comment on these responses individually first. I hate taking sides, I
would rather these responses speak for themselves and have enough
dialogue to work these things out for themselves but these things need
comment.
When I was Baptized in the Holy Ghost, I did not speak in tongues, I
prophesied and I have never needed to prove this to others to validate
the baptism. I know the deeper things of the spirit and God knows my
heart and bears witness with my spirit that these things that He has
taught me are true, nothing anyone can say can change that and I cannot
possibly deny or ever doubt that it is true. It would follow that those
that spoke in tongues when they were baptized in the Holy Ghost would
feel the same way. When I pray, I pray silently in the spirit with
power, the type of prayer power that can receive interpretation in the
congregation. I can ask God a question and He miraculously answers me
through the voice of others. That is only a sign to me, others have no
idea. I have done this many times. My wife says I spoke in tongues while
I am asleep, when she told me this, I immediately spoke an audible
interpretation. It matters not what anybody does to judge me one way or
another, except I am called to unite, so division hurts. No one here is
denying the validity of the gift but it cannot reasonably be up to one
charism to judge the evidence of the Holy Ghost in others, we should be
suspicious of those that do not have the love to accept others in this
truth. It should, then be up to the Holy Ghost to judge whether there is
sufficient love for acceptance in truth as to others and if not, by our
discernment, it is they who should be questioned as to if they really
have the Holy Ghost continuing in them or not. If you agree or not with
that, let's hear it. My responses below are between the
####.
There have been other topics suggested for discussion, the feasts, the
rapture, healing, tithing. We should continue with this one but keep
these others in mind for later. They are good topics.
Jay
Just when are some of these brethren going to grow up. To speak in
tongues or not,
to sing in tongues or not, is it a sign or is it a manifestation of the
Holy Spirit.
Some people get locked onto a single verse and do not have eyes to see
the rest of
Holy Writ'
1 Cor.12; 13; 14.
1 Cor 12:28-13:8
CHAPTER 13
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not
love,
I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
While praying for people to receive spiritual gifts or healing or in the
presbytery I
have had to admonish certain people to stop speaking in tongues long
enough to
receive.
To say that: (Today there are lots of people who speak in tongues and
have a devil.
The tongues is a sign of receiving a spirit not the evidence of the Holy
Ghost.)
Is pretty strong language, I would rather say that (Today there are a
lot of people
who speak/or do not speak in tongues and are displaying traits of the
Adamic
nature.)
And these traits are done away with in Christ.
I have met a lot of people who may speak in tongues and (act like a
devil) but to
say they (have a devil) is another issue.
I have personally ministered to hundreds of people and I must admit the
ones who
had the hardest time to receive were those that stood there and would
not stop
speaking in tongues long enough to receive.
If a tongues talker. miracle worker, apostle or any other, has NO LOVE
he is as a
clanging brass or a cymbal.
But LOVE never fails.
And oh yes, I do speak in tongues but I have found a more excellent way.
LOVE to me is the real evidence of the Holy Spirit in my life.
While pastoring a small church a few years ago I heard a dear little
lady say "those
bikers over there, all the noise they make with there bikes and all the
drinking and
carrying on, all they need is to receive their tongues."
No all they need is to receive Christ.
Tongues are a hot topic, and has caused much division in the church,
but the true
manifestation of Agape Love never fails.
Brother Alan
####I have to go along with what Brother Alan has said here because it is
exactly where I believe the truth is. Paul has given us all
the answers we need to come to one accord on this. Paul did not answer
his question "do we all speak in tongues" but it should
be obvious. Love is the answer, other gifts are also a sign and evidence
of the Holy Ghost, fruits of the spirit are required, the
giver, not the gift.####
Jay:
The whole issue comes down to the stigma that has been attached to
"Tongues" by the religious world.
I think men like Tony Campolo and others have done a mighty disservice
to
Christ in saying that you can have the Holy Spirit and NOT speak in
tongues. The early church for almost 300 years felt that this heresy and
one
other deserved banishment from their ranks . The other was the preaching
of
"Once saved always saved" . Obviously neither of these things is New to
us
but have been around since day one.
If you were to buy a painting, and you were told it was an original,
would you want it close to the original or to be the original. Close
allows
for the counterfeit to be passed off, the original will be "EXACTLY" as
first seen, not a copy with a "FEW" things left out.
The early church were taught by the Apostles who were taught by
Jesus
himself, you would think they would know what was real and what was
not???
If you are asked to pray for someone for the Baptism, and there are
NO
VISIBLE SIGNS< how would you know when to stop praying??
The real issue of course relates to being open and yielded to the
Lord.
HE, is a gentleman and will not go where HE is not welcome. IF , you are
blocking out "TONGUES" do you honestly think HE will come in??? My
Bible
states HE is easily grieved and Hurt and I believe that He would wait
until
you were open and YIELDED totally to him before he comes in.
I strongly disagree with you on this one, from the Biblical
standpoint
and the historical standpoint. I also have been a Spirit Filled believer
for
many years and have walked in this circle and do know from experience
that
IF you are filled , YOU WILL speak in tongues.....
Under these circumstances, knowing you are not going to retreat from
what you believe and I am not going to go into a heretical stance or
mode,
for the best , for the whole group, please remove me from the list. I
will
not be a division point in the group, even though it hurts my very soul
and
spirit to see the group go off on a tangent like this.
as to the manifestation thing--IF TONGUES was not the MANIFESTATION
given to EVERY man, what was??? Paul said it was given to EACH ONE> The
same
Paul also said that the gifts were placed as the Holy Spirit saw fit to
each
one severally as He wills, I think there is a major problem with the
distinction between the Prayer language that comes to each one at the
infixing of Gods Holy Spirit and the "Gift" of tongues that is meant for
the
"Edification, Exhortation and Comfort of the Body"
One is strictly for me and is the "Manifestation" of the Spirit,
allowing Me to speak to God in his language.
The other is for Edification, Exhortation and Comfort to he body, and
MUST
be interpreted for anyone to receive anything from it.
One is a gift, the other is the initial manifestation of receiving
the
Holy Spirit.
This is what the early church believed and this is what I read in
Gods
holy word.
Blessings and I do hope the group can grow and multiply:
####I believe that the "stigma" attached came about because the gift of
tongues was elevated to a position above the other spiritual
gifts when it should not have been, placing the church out of order.
Bill has asked to be taken off the list so that he would not be
not going into a heretical stance. That means that he believes that
anyone who does not have the gift of tongues cannot have the Holy Ghost
and whoever teaches differently is a heretic. Bill, I have left you on
this list to try to show you a more excellent way. I am not a heretic
because I prophesy as the evidence within myself of the Holy Ghost and
teach that it is sufficient. I thank God that when I was baptized in the
Holy Ghost, I did not speak in tongues. God has done this for a purpose
because He has called me to heal the division in love. If He had given
me tongues at the first, I might feel the same way that you do and that
would be wrong. To separate yourself from us because of this is a sign
of division and evidence that something else is wrong. Please, Bill - Do
not think of us as heretics over this, you are only hurting yourself. To
separate from us is to prove it. You need to show us love, truth and
evidence of the Holy Ghost other than speaking in tongues. I will take
you off of this list if you still wish to be, but that won't make any
one of us any more or less right or wrong or us as heretics. It will
only perpetuate the division.####
Hi,
As I look at the Word of God relevant to those that knew the power of
the
Spirit, I must say that I cannot agree that you must have tongues as
evidence
of being filled with the Spirit. I do not recall anywhere in the
Scriptures
that indicated that Jesus spoke in tongues and yet we are all aware of
the
Spirit in Him. John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit and there is
no
indication of the gift of tongues being evidence of his Spirit filled
life.
There are those in the Old Testament that was full of the power of the
Spirit
also. In II Kings 2:9, And so it was, when they had crossed over, that
Elijah
said to Elisha, "Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from
you?" Elisha said, "Please let a double portion of you spirit be upon
me."
Now, Elijah and Elisha was truly not walking and manifesting the power
from
within themselves, but of the Holy Spirit. In I Sam. 16:13, "Then
Samuel
took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and
the
Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward." Judges 14:6
says
of Samson, " And the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon him, and he
tore
the lion apart as one would have torn apart a young goat, though he had
nothing in his hand." and in Judges 14:19, "Then the Spirit of the Lord
came
upon him mightily, and he went down to Ashkelon and killed thirty of
their of
men, took their apparel, and gave the changes of clothing to those who
had
explained the riddle. So his anger was aroused, and he went back up to
his
father's house."
This is just a few that I mention from the Old Testament and they were
filled
with the Spirit. I believe that we were introduced to the Holy Spirit
of God
in the New Testament although it was with man from the beginning. Just
as we
were introduced to Jesus the son of God although He was with man from
the
beginning.
Tongues is a gift and the least of all gifts at that, however I think
for
some it is needed to manifest to them that they were truly filled. It
is
according to their faith and some do not have the faith to speak forth
as the
Spirit gives them utterance. I am still studying the Holy Spirit, not
for
the purposes of the gifts but for the purpose of knowing Him more
intimately
and being even more sensitive to His leading. The Spirit has many
purposes
other than that we speak in tongues. Tongues may be just a sign to us,
but I
do not think it a necessity to indicate we have been filled. We were
introduced to the gifts of the Spirit for the purpose of building the
Kingdom. They are tools needed to accomplish the will of the Lord and
just
as we do not all have all the gifts (although I want them all and
believe
that because they belong to the Holy Spirit and He abides within us, we
have
access to them all), tongues is included as one of the gifts. I will
end it
there. Just a few comments of my thoughts.
Karen
####Old Testament manifestations and even in Jesus and John, the Comforter
had not yet come. The last paragraph that Karen has
here is especially relative to the discussion and that is that tongues
for some may be needed to manifest that they were truly
filled. The intimate relationship, being sensitive to His leading and a
sign. Not evidence, but a tool as one of the gifts.####
I agree it is the Sign of speaking with other tongues. The evidence is
the
lifestyle. Every thing in religion is speaking in tongues now. We
must
try every spirit
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits
whether
they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the
world.
This is the evidence that they have the holy
Galatians 5:22-26
It doesn't matter how much you speak in tongues if you don't have these
things reflecting him in your life you don't' have the holy Ghost.
In the Love of Jesus Christ
Stephen R. Tipton
####Fruits of the spirit are extremely important in the evidence and
manifestation of the Holy Ghost. Satan can counterfeit the
gifts of the spirit. If we were to judge the baptism of the Holy Ghost
with only the gift of tongues, we let the possibility of the
counterfeit blind us to the true manifestations and open to deception.
There are false prophets around and false apostles.
Maybe there are false speakers in tongues that the devil is using to
counterfeit. If tongues are believed to be the initial evidence
and it is not, then these false speakers have never been truly baptized
in the Holy Ghost but have put up a facade and used to
delude the church into thinking that tongues is evidence. They would
still need to look for love and acceptance for evidence of the Holy
Ghost.####
Jay
enjoyed your "forwards" on tongues.
a side note"
I have received the true Gift of tongues as well as an "initial"
evidence.
I read, write and speak about 10 languages, which I never learned...
I received them "spontaneously" by the Spirit, when in foreign lands,
and
needed them.
I use them "at will' ie I KNOW THEM...
they are not something I "have no control over", but have the same
control
of them as I do English, (which I was taught).
Be blessed
Paul C.
Hi Jay well regarding tongues a lot has been said. Maybe we need to
clarify
what we all mean. The classical Pentecostal interpretation is that
tongues is
the 'initial evidence' of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I don't think
that
anyone has ever said it is the only evidence. It seems to me that in
scripture it was indeed the initial evidence but whether you can build a
doctrine from that, that it will always be the case I don't know.
Whatever we
think though I think we are all agreed that we should let the Holy
Spirit do
the work rather than get people to open there mouths and 'force' them to
speak in tongues. I think that is a sure way to get flaky tongues and
that it
would be far better if we could get new converts filled with the Spirit
and
speaking in tongues, and then show them about tongues in the scripture!
I
remember Kenneth Hagin relating a story about somebody he prayed for to
receive the Holy Spirit. Nothing seemed to happen in the way of tongues
so
bro. Hagin asked the recipient if the Spirit had moved upon them to
speak to
which the lady replied that it had taken all her might to stop it! He
then
explained to her from scripture that she was meant to flow with it and
she
did! I think we have all seen the 'just open your mouth and say the
first
thing that comes variety of tongues!
Dean
####Thanks, Dean. Get them filled first. Are not love and prophecy and
interpretation and discernment and the word of knowledge
and healing and casting out demons manifestations of the Holy Ghost? And
if so, wouldn't these gifts be enough "initial
evidence" for others to recognize the Holy Ghost in them? As well as
tongues? We still need to look at love and acceptance for
true unity.####
Jay,
Concerning Bill's comment 1 Corinthians 12: 7, 8 is as follows:
7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit
withal."
8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the
word of knowledge by the same Spirit;..."
To clarify what you said about the above scripture, Jay: When "for" (as
in verse 8) is used at the beginning of a sentence, what follows it is
an
explanation of the preceding thought. One could safely use "because" in
place of "for" and it would make what Paul was saying even clearer. So,
we would have to conclude that Paul was referring to all the gifts in
this context because that is what follows the word "for". The
manifestations of the gifts listed in verse 8 is given to every man to
profit all. If we are going to be fair to the text, we cannot say that
it
is not referring to the "gifts per se" as Bill stated.
His statement "The Apostles were convinced that the Gentiles were filled
with GODS spirit because they "Heard them Speak in Tongues and Magnify
God as we did at the first" is a correct assessment of the passage to
which it refers.
45 "And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many
as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the
gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then
answered
Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which
have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" (Acts 10: 45-47)
This time that little word "for" is in Bill's favor. This is the
strongest Biblical support one could have in believing that tongues are
the initial evidence or sign of the Baptism. However, as I said before,
tongues were not established by the Apostles as the initial evidence.
They were obviously quite common then (and are today) as evidence. I
look
at it from this standpoint. Let's pretend it is a common occurrence when
someone is water baptized, that they come up out of the water with their
hair a blueish color. Because of it being a common occurrence, the
people
that did not actually see them get baptized new they had been because of
their blue hair. That would be the evidence to them that they had been
baptized. However, it is possible that some could dye their hair blue
and
deceive people in to thinking they too had been baptized. How would we
know the truth then? Were is the proof of their immersion? Did someone
see it happen?
To be baptized with the Holy Ghost means we are immersed in or clothed
with Him. John the Baptist said that he saw the Spirit descend and
remain
on Jesus. Did you know you can actually "see" the Spirit UPON someone.
We
have to be able to "see" or discern Him coming upon and remaining on
people, this is the sure initial evidence. What flows out of that person
as the result of the Spirit coming upon is between them and God. The
person receiving the Spirit will also know when He comes upon them.
The main objective of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not tongues.
We
should not pray for people to get tongues in praying for someone to
receive the Baptism. The Apostles didn't. We should instead pray for an
immersion in the Spirit to take place. This should be the main
objective.
Tongues would be a result or outflowing. The Holy Spirit is a person and
is not the gift of tongues. If I see a person immersed in the Holy
Spirit, they are baptized, just as sure if I saw them immersed in water
(whether they have blue hair or not!). I am not saying that something
will not flow out of that person after receiving the Baptism. Jesus said
out of your belly (heart) will flow Rivers of Living Water. The River
can
flow out in many different forms, and not just tongues.
In response to what John said: the Acts 10: 45-47 passage along with the
following verse prove that tongues can be both the evidence of and a
sign
of someone having received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. "Now when
this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were
confounded,
because that every man heard them speak in his own language" (Acts 2:
6).
Those who came with Peter in Acts 10: 45 knew the gentiles had received
it because they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. This was
"evidence" to them, and it was also a "sign". A sign signifies
something.
Tongues and magnifying God was the evidence of and sign(ified) that they
had received the gift of the Holy Ghost. The same could be applied to
Acts 2: 6. Evidence and sign can be used interchangeably. Holiness,
character, etc are evidences of the Baptism, but could not be classified
as the initial evidence.
Blessings to All,
Gary P.
####Yes, the Baptism is what is important, not any one particular gift. We
should elevate the giver, not the gift.####
Jay,
I think I am missing something somewhere, like a chat room, or
something, but I was interested in the discussion of "tongues" as
evidence of the Holy Spirit. For many years, I have been convinced that
God led me to the job I have now. I was inspired to take it inspite of
the fact that it was a low-paying, low-prestige job. The way I was led
there was by a reading in church on the day that I was most troubled
about accepting this job. It happened that the very words in that
scripture kept repeating themselves in my head even before I heard the
reading. When the passage was read, it was as if I had been hit by a
thunderbolt.
We all have many gifts. Long ago, I wanted the gift of tongues,
but
just could not achieve it. My group, an ultra-Christian group, pointed
the finger at me, saying that Satan had made me hard-hearted, that I
didn't really love God, etc. I carried a lot of guilt. Now, I am much
older and wiser, and I realize that some of us are here to worship and
some of us are here to serve. I am here to serve God, and everyday that
I can offer up my job as service to God's people is worship of Him. I
have had many tough times, some even scary, but God has helped me
survive
the rigors of my job; I am conscious that I have not done this alone of
my own accord, but with the help of a higher authority. The messages,
the healing, the blessings, and the inspiration I have received from Him
and that I AM ABLE TO GIVE BACK is powerful proof to me that the Holy
Spirit is there, albeit in a subtle manner.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that I think some people
who are
big proponents of speaking in tongues convey the smug impression that
they are "better" than those who cannot speak in tongues. But if these
are all gifts from God, the Almighty, the Perfect One, no gift should be
held as less than another.---YP
####Welcome, YP. I get the same attitude from those that say they are saved,
sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost yet cannot
love me enough to accept the power of Jesus within me. I would rather be
called a heretic than be one. The Baptism in the
Holy Ghost comes with the power to serve God. With me, it was a
profound, can't deny it experience. If it is subtle and still
exhibits the fruits of love, then that is evidence enough for me and
also should a sign to the believers. I would tell you to follow
Paul's advice and desire that you may prophesy. In my own case, I
separate myself from those that try to put a guilt trip on me.
I can accept them but it is they that cannot accept me. When I separate,
I did not cause the division, they did.####
Jay:
Is the Speaking in tongues essential? yes! it is the Sign of the
infilling
of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:4-5
The same way this started is the same way is going to end. The speaking
in
tongues is the Sign, the Evidence is the manifestation of the fruits of
the
Spirit thru your life. I agree with John, It is the Character of Jesus
Christ displayed thru our life to fulfil the Word. Seems to me that a
lot
of people still do not have a firm foundation according to Heb. 6:1-3.
Some
people do not understand the difference of the initial sign of speaking
in
tongues with the gift of tongues and interpretation. That is why it is
important to understand to who and WHY did Paul wrote concerning the
speaking in tongues.
Alejandro Sosa.
Ps. The Endtime message would be an interesting topic of discussion.
There
are many people that will parish because lack of knowledge. The rapture
doctrine is a lie and anyone preaching it is a false prophet.
####To me this is a contradiction. Essential that all baptized with the Holy
Ghost speak in tongues as a sign for unbelievers? It is
believers that are calling us heretics. And I do not see that the gift
of tongues is mentioned as foundational in Hebrews 6. After I
was baptized in the Holy Ghost, I wanted everything that the Lord had to
offer. I made the decision to speak in tongues years ago, Alejandro, and
told my pastor. He told me that I needed to be baptized in the Holy
Ghost. I told him that I had already been baptized in the Holy Ghost, I
wanted to ask for the gift of tongues. He said that if I do not speak in
tongues that I have not been baptized in the Holy Ghost yet. I knew that
he was wrong, then, just as I do now. I walked away from the division
and still do, I cannot deny the experiential facts in my own life and it
is impossible for others to deny them as well, not in truth anyway.####
Jay,
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply on the "tongues" issue,
but I
spent much of last week out of the office. I did read most of the other
replies and agree for the most part with all of them. I will say this;
my
middle child, who had already accepted Jesus on his own at the age of
about 4,
also of his own accord approached the altar at a church meeting so that
someone could pray with him about receiving the "baptism of the
spirit." He
did this all of his own choice, prayed with and was prayed over and
came back
to us just glowing. Now, I can say without any hint of doubt, that he
was
changed that night. Many things have changed for the positive with him
and he
has on several occasions given prophecy without understanding it, but
he has
never, that I know, of spoken in tongues. But, I am just as certain
that he
received "the baptism" as I am that Jesus is the Saviour of all. At
times, I
can actually see the Holy Spirit on him.
As far as knowing whether someone has this "baptism," I believe
the
only way we will be able to know for sure, is when we see things the
way the
Lord sees things. Right now none of us are at that place, at least on a
regular basis. But, I'll tell you, when the firstfruits, the manifested
sons
of God, attain that place in the Lord, when they have come into the
place of
true sonship, when they walk in a way that they see the world the way
Jesus
sees the world, it will be readily apparent to them, what the spiritual
"state" is for the people they interact with. Just some thoughts and
observations.
Grace and Peace,
Gil
####I am glad we waited for your response, Gil. I believe that prophecy is
much more of an initial evidence of the Baptism of the
Holy Ghost because it is something that other prophets can either bear
witness to or not. The spirit of prophecy is subject to the
prophets. It can be counterfeited but not to a true prophet that is
filled with the Holy Ghost. God gives this as a sign to believers, not
tongues. Tongues are important to the body, all the gifts are important
but when one is used to give proof to the
exclusion of the others, then that is where the error lies. Or should I
now call it heresy, or just lacking in love?####
(From my page - Glossolalia - Speaking in tongues):
The five-fold ministry is as much Pentecostal as it is Apostolic and
that includes speaking in tongues. Many modern
Pentecostals fall into the Corinthian trap and believe that tongues is
the evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit; even more
dangerous is the absurd belief that this is the only experience a
Christian needs in order to have the fullness of Christian life.
They don't just say that speaking in tongues is a sign of the Holy Ghost
like other spiritual gifts, including love. They think that
speaking in tongues is the ONLY proof and this where satan gets the
advantage to use this error to cause division, corruption
and a congregation that is out of order. Many reject the five-fold
ministry because of these misled brothers among them.
Many tongue speakers believe that the least of the gifts make them
spiritually superior than other Christians, a kind of
super-saint. The worst of them then start to think that speaking in
tongues is a badge of honor. It is no longer one or two and
with an interpretation, it is whole congregations speaking at once in
confusion. Some forget the teachings of Jesus and only
worship Paul and the Holy Ghost; conversely, they conform to the letter
of the law instead of living in the spirit. They would be
better off stressing a higher gift like discernment or faith rather than
tongues; condemnation is the norm and love and unity for
outsiders is really far from them. Being out of order has led them to a
gross legalism and a babel of confusion and numbers them
with the transgressors. Those churches are quite satisfied with the
confusion and disorder reigning in their services and care
nothing about it. Over time, more and more of these babel churches will
be exposed as cults.
Fortunately the gift of tongues is still being used mightily to confirm
His Spirit and rhema word in the congregations and there has
been much interpretation. Only two or three are to exercise the gift of
tongues, and then only if there is someone to interpret.
Otherwise take it alone into the prayer closet for your own edification.
(From my page - Azusa Street Mission):
"Don't go out of here talking about tongues; talk about Jesus," Seymour
would say. We should be glad that we have signs and
wonders and manifestations of the Holy Spirit. We should praise God for
every person that prophesies and speaks with
tongues and interprets, every one that heals and gets healed. The
five-fold ministry is for today and every day, for each pastor,
each evangelist, each bishop, each member of His body, thank God for all
these things. But hear me now end-time church; if
you can't put away your schismatic, traditional, separatist, puritan,
right-wing judgmental, ignorant, calvinist, illiberal,
oppressive, pharisee ways toward those Christians who are not saints,
God will pass you by even in these last days and choose
the ones who can. Please heed my words because I love you and have ears
to hear what the spirit is saying to the churches....
What we need today is to rededicate our lives to becoming one, what
happened at Azusa Street divided more churches than it
united. The ongoing refreshing of the Latter Rain must reach out beyond
the conservative traditionalism that has tried to quench
the spirit and we must speak with one voice before we can ever attain to
the unity of the faith. Jesus will not return until we do.
Speaking as one does not mean that we compromise with puritan legalism
or make friends with the Pharisees, but rather win
them over by our own oneness, love and truth. Babylon will fall, God is
cutting them off otherwise, but don't let that concern
you, let the spirit flow toward where it is received. And don't bother
to argue with them, it has been said many times before.
Guard the gifts of the spirit, brothers and sisters. Protect them from
corruption and abuse and put them in order.
(From my page - The Baptism With the Holy Ghost):
My prophetic abilities came in the late sixties through the reading of
the scriptures and the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. It
wasn't through intercession (although my Mother prayed) or tarrying or
laying on of hands, even though they can be valid as
well. Although a nominal Christian and thought I loved the Lord, signs
and wonders were not experienced within me until I
found by the reading of the Word that my life was sinful. I simply and
sincerely reached my hand up and said I'm sorry. God
suddenly and profoundly engulfed me with a touch of the spirit that I
had not known existed. My whole being was effected,
looking back it seems like every molecule and nerve ending in my body
was suddenly aglow to this new experiential truth. It
was a total surprise; I hadn't worked myself into anything at all. In a
split second I felt that I had just been given the keys to the
greatest answers in history and knew everything I ever needed to know
about the meaning of life and the secrets of the ages. I
also received a glimpse of the future and have since believed that I
would be part of end time events. And I praised the Lord.
No power in earth, heaven or hell could ever dissuade me from the fact
that this was an authentic spiritual glory in my life, it was
too real, too profound. This goes for others as well, same God, similar
experiences. I only found out what spiritual baptism was
later through study, I believe that it was providential that I did not
receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost through another
person. I do not teach that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is necessary
for justification or that the Holy Ghost Baptism needs
to be the intense feeling that I experienced. I do not teach that
Christians have to be baptized in the Holy Ghost in the process
of sanctification but it helps; sanctification comes through faith, love
and holiness. I do not teach that the Baptism with the Holy
Ghost proves itself by any one particular gift, be it tongues or
prophecy, that is a schismatic lie spread by satan to divide the
Church, God is calling me to unite. For others to teach against this
baptism process just because they have never experienced a
move of God of this magnitude or in the same way is foolishness.
My experience with prophecy came also by the reading of the word.
Through my first time reading of the Bible I knew nothing
of charisms, much less prophetic utterances, but I respected the Bible
as something that had already dramatically changed my
life. I had read Paul's words in I Corinthians: "Follow after love, and
desire spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophesy. For
he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God:
for no man understands him, however in the spirit he
speaks mysteries. But he that prophesies speaks unto men to edification,
and exhortation, and comfort." I vividly remember the
day. After reading those verses I admitted to God my ignorance in even
knowing what Paul meant but that if I should especially
desire prophecy please give it to me. Not knowing what to expect, I
believed. Not soon after this, I was speaking to a brother
outside my home. As I spoke, the Holy Ghost came and touched my lips and
started to make them move in a way that I had no
control. My body was elated as though I was floating. I started giving
this man an ecstatic gospel message from God that he
needed to hear and with an authority and wisdom of which I had no prior
knowledge. At that moment, the darkness of the
autumn evening, the leaves sounding through the trees and all nature
seemed attuned to what I was saying. What God had done
that night is to confirm His word in me by that sign. Only then did I
know what prophecy really meant. I know that God's true
prophets will agree. Of those who disagree, I know that I can challenge
any number of would-be prophets, if need be I could
take them behind the woodshed of the Holy Ghost and thrash each of them
with spiritual power, putting them all to shame. Not
only myself but also any true prophet of God in these last days should
have that confidence and power.
January 25, 2000
Have you ever wondered why the Lord sandwiched 1 Cor.13 in between the
two
chapters that really speak about spiritual gifts.
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second
prophets, third
teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps,
administrations, varieties
of tongues.
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of
miracles?
Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all
interpret?
But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent
way.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries
and all
knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove
mountains, but have
not love, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my
body to
be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade
itself, is not
puffed up;
does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks
no evil;
does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all
things.
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail;
whether
there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will
vanish away.
In Jesus wonderful name;
Bill Hawkins
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the
affections
and lusts. {affections: or, passions}
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying
one another
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with
other
tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
1 Cor 14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a SIGN, not to them that believe,....
Heb 13:8
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